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Chris, what about the "invisible" achievements? That is, when you know that there is an achievement system, but you have no visible list of those. It wouldn't have the same "motivation factor" as the current system, but it would gently steer the players towards exploration and experimentation.

Btw, I like achievements, mainly because I don't feel obliged to achieve them all, but feel rewarded when I see a new one appearing on the screen.

LateTide: I am extremely doubtful that hidden achievements encourage exploration and experimentation: players surely either ignore them or look them up. Either way, the invisible achievements still overdetermine gameplay in the sense of making these goals more important than the player's free play.

An interesting design challenge would be a set of achievements that genuinely encouraged players to express themselves, but even then I feel agency would be undercut.

All this makes me wonder if there is any possibility of achieving the degree of role-play that was possible in MUDs in contemporary MMOs, which all overdetermine via achievements, equipment and other commoditizations.

Like refurbished zoos, we now have games that satisfy their prisoners by seeming to give them what they want. Perhaps, if you never notice that you are in jail, that is enough.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

Perhaps 'suggestions' to try different game styles would be better, delivered like any hint on a loading screen?

Personally, I hate achievements and ignore them by simply not looking at the list; Basically, pretending they don't exist.

Not always possible though, sadly. In FTL you need achievements to unlock variant ships. It's a particularly terrible game to use this in too, because it's highly random.

You might be trying to win using only drones, but if no shop selling drones appears...

Ruins what might be a perfectly playable run-through and goes against the 'play the hand you're dealt' mindset of Rogue-likes.

CmdrJameson: hadn't heard this complaint levelled against FTL before - very interesting! Shows how deep into the design culture achievements have become now...

Glad to find someone else resistant to Achievements. I find them quite difficult to resist, since Achiever is one of my play styles (although one I enjoy less than certain others) and so I have had to take the stronger step of attempting to avoid games with this model. In practice, this has meant avoiding almost all games except artgames. Fortunately, this works rather well for my current relationship with videogames since I am so thoroughly sick of the mainstream games industry and am happy to support those attempting new things on the periphery. ;)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

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